3:54 AM A voice for the voiceless 2
Asked at what point a baby gets “human rights,” Obama, who strongly supports abortion rights, said: “… whether you’re looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity … is above my pay grade.”
Well, step aside Obama..... it isn't above mine...and I make a fraction of what you make.
CBN's David Brody interviewed Obama immediately after the Saddleback forum and this interesting exchange occured where Obama accused the National Right to Life Committee of lying in no uncertain terms. Here's the exchange via Red State:
Brody: Real quick, the Born Alive Infant Protection Act. I gotta tell you that's the one thing I get a lot of emails about and it's just not just from Evangelicals, it about Catholics, Protestants, main -- they're trying to understand it because there was some literature put out by the National Right to Life Committee. And they're basically saying they felt like you misrepresented your position on that bill.That's a gutsy move by Obama, especially because he is lying. It is also a very dumb move by Obama because this could start a war of words between the NRLC and Obama. And the exchange might just be enough to make the media interested in the matter, putting this issue on the news -exactly where Obama doesn't want it to be.
Obama: Let me clarify this right now.
Brody: Because it's getting a lot of play.
Obama: Well and because they have not been telling the truth. And I hate to say that people are lying, but here's a situation where folks are lying. I have said repeatedly that I would have been completely in, fully in support of the federal bill that everybody supported - which was to say --that you should provide assistance to any infant that was born - even if it was as a consequence of an induced abortion. That was not the bill that was presented at the state level. What that bill also was doing was trying to undermine Roe vs. Wade. By the way, we also had a bill, a law already in place in Illinois that insured life saving treatment was given to infants.
The only way a Christian can cast their vote for Obama is if they are willing to slap themselves to the point where they're unconscious and won't remember it... Or do you think it has to do with the fact that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a "donkey" to eat with republicans and sinners? Clearly you can't be that ignorant right?
So with the rise of a Pro-Choice Mob per-say in the Christian community.. Perhaps they've been around for awhile.. And if so, they've been hiding out.... what a bunch of cowards.. with one hand they proclaim Jesus and with the other hand they cast their vote giving a death sentence to babies... Is it because you disagree with war more? So far 40 million babies never got a chance at peace and thats just since Roe vs. Wade.. Maybe one of them could have made a difference.. .. Is it because its inevitable and we need to make it safe? Well, so is murder... You wanna tell me how we might explain to people how to kill others safely? Or better yet, how we can safely sin? Or is it because you're entitled to something like free health care? Nice compromise you got their Hitler. Here's the deal... The honest truth.... I'm disgusted.. disappointed and passionately furious.. And I seriously want to know, on what grounds, biblically and morally is the killing of babies okay for Christians?
Good thing is... I'm angry about something that matters.. right?
Recently in a sermon from Nate, he shared with us a historical perspective what was going down in Ephesus in biblical times. On the topic of adoption, Nate educated listeners on the fact that during this time, this culture was basically punting unwanted babies off a cliff...I'm positive most of those that heard this message had some compassion and concluded how grotesque such an action was. Mainly those that have children.. For me, I ponder how the same thing is happening today.. Obviously not on the lines of picking through life like dictating savages for a dominate race like the Roman and Greek cultures did. But more on the lines of a careless act against life in general.... As a believer, my questions are only to those that "supposedly" believe the same biblical principles, or rather call themselves a follower of the teachings that we plainly see in the support of life when reading the words of Jesus... I'm convinced that this issue is due to biblical education and spiritual discipline.. or rather the lack thereof. Like I shared before in my previous blog, I hadn't a clue that a chasm existed. Seriously, how can a so-called Christian be so aloof? and not just biblically but also worldly? Both? You gotta be kidding me! For example: what would you say about Matthew 18:9? Gouging out our eye if it causes us to sin? Pretty straight forward right? But we set those scriptures aside and only cast our eyes upon the stuff that treats our needs. So,we ignore them. Of course I'm sure someone will write in a book about how we've missed it and proclaim with a drug induced mystical realization that Jesus was talking about how we have a third eye which is our "demonic eye" and "this eye" is what we are supposed to "gouge out"... Probably Rob Bell and Brian McLaren in a book co-written about how the Mormons are right, that there is no hell, we'll all be saved and we all have our own personal demonic cyclops..
I've decided I'm going to write a short 5 or 6 chapter Ebook on this issue... And I'm going to challenge every Pro-Choice Christian to come out of the woodwork and explain to me or rather explain to their community how we as followers can support abortion.. Please, kindly share with us your wisdom...I want to specifically know where in scripture this is.. I want to specifically know how it is ok.. and I want to specifically know what "wisdom" you are being guided on to make such a proclamation.. Like I said I think it's more on the lines of being biblically and spiritually sub-par. For those that want to.. call me out on why I'm Pro-Life. Fortunately for you, I'm not a Todd Bentley crony that would happily explain my reasons after I gave you a swift kick to the face in the name of Jesus.. I'm not a coward and I would be glad to explain why I believe in life and TRUST IN GOD WHOLEHEARTEDLY.. But then again.... I just gave you my answer.
Maybe Paul is right.. we all have our thorns.... Maybe all those Christian Pro-Choice supporters suffer from a giant thorn stabbing them right in the heart...
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excellent post. i have been doing some research into obama and his views on aborted babies that are still alive after the abortion procedure...what a horrific thing to go through...but he is all for putting them to death regardless. lets move to premature babies next. maybe he'll come up with a law that says "you have one week after birth to kill your baby"...offensive and scary. anyways, great post. people need to hear about this...
I'm convinced that most Christians that vote Pro-Choice... bar-hop, watch too much MTV on a daily basis and have a surplus of pixie stix that they're snorting up their noses.. oh did I mention they NEVER read their bible and ONLY pray to God when they can't make rent. They continue to live their lives on a hippy skipping track telling others it's all about love brother. Someone needs to stop them and let them know that the "change" Jesus called us to, doesn't go in a circle and look like a toilet..
I'm also convinced that the Christians that carry "some" sort of intellect watch too much Oprah and lean on the "supposed wisdom" of others, through literature proclaiming how we've missed it in the last 2000 years, Jesus is satan's bro, mother nature has a fever, we're addicted to dinosaur juice, wisdom is a female.. and the Holocaust never happened...
Did I mention these people only read the scriptures that they can parallel with a book that has skewed the context of God's word to benefit their self proclaimed claptrap?... Or better yet if I had a family and I was taking them to KKK meetings.. I think I'd be a racist... But Pro-Choice Christians can hold hands with the ACLU and find a reason why I'm not...Just like they can only find their reasons supporting abortion existing outside God's word..
Anybody else see something wrong with this picture?
preach it. christians can be for universal health care. christians can be for higher taxes if they want. christians CANNOT be pro-abortion/pro-choice/pro-infanticide
you cannot claim to be a christian and support (or turn a blind eye to) abortion in any way, shape or form.
saying "it's not the only issue" is a cop out. i am excited to read youe ebook. i'll send you a great link i found on abortion...just have to refind it...but it is an evangelical rebuttal to all the pro-abortion arguments (lies)
interesting...
I've always had a passion for the kiddies.. Not that I want to be in youth ministry or anything.. but when I see these little ones running a muck.. it always hits me.. that's the future! That's who God is going to use... and we can't dictate that for God..
People will probably ask me things about... incest, rape, and all the other evil things that they could constitute for aborting life... but then I would ask... who are you trying to punish?
by the way... I literally wear this passion on my sleeve.. a tattoo that reminds me of the compassion Jesus had for children...
Somehow these types don't hear His words and have set up a "slaughter house"... treating life as if they are the master and have the full control to choose whether God's promise matters to these little ones or not..
www.mtio.com/articles/aissar35.htm
i think that should work. let me know what you think.
Wow, Juan.
That's quite the diatribe.
I am quite adamantly pro-life, however, it seems that there is room for a little more nuance than you are allowing.
It has been said that 'politics is the art of the possible,' what do you make of that?
And I am a little suprised at the vitriol you aim at McLaren and Bell...
...what did they do?
well Steve... in the words of Rob Bell, I think you've missed it.. in fact you have.. The line is drawn.. you might see where it's ok to consider abortion because of "certain circumstances".. I don't and I clearly make my point in my blog..
It's ironic that you would approach me and call me bitter.. Given the fact that I'm sacrificing my character for those that never had one.. You might think I'm arrogant, ignorant, or even stupid.. and in which I say.. I'm not trying to conform to any passive excuse so many Christians arm themselves with.. In a war fighting for life that weapon is like bringing a squirt gun to the battle of Armageddon.. unless it's filled with holy water I guess you might have a chance.. but in my case fervently make my concern and say anything for the kiddies..
From what I understand about selfish ambition or even bitterness is, its more focused on the single person.. In this case I have nothing to gain.
Calling "Christians" in accord is something we see all over scripture.. We have gotten into a pattern of only receiving messages that are warm and fuzzy...
I see you come from the Vineyard.. amazing community. I remember when Nancy Kerns prophesied over me and God told her to drive her fist into my gut like a sword... If you want you might ask her as to why she would do such a thing... I remember like it was yesterday.. but it might be better if you heard it from her.. although my relationship with the Vineyard is next to nothing she continues to believe in me as to Pastor Mike..
The approach I'm taking is a dangerous one because I'm speaking to comfortable Christians.. I'd probably have an easier time speaking to God haters..
It seems although we are in agreement that life is what matters, I'm afraid I take a greater stance as to what that really means. I wouldn't do it unless I knew God was calling me. I still have many things to learn, but none of them is how I might see where politics is the art of the possible especially when it comes to abortion like you so boldly state.. I give all my faith to God in which all things are possible.. I've made many retarded mistakes in my life and nothing in this world or the "art" thereof has gotten me out of the messes that I've created.. Only God...
I appreciate your concern with Bell and McLaren.. and I do have concern about them.. Some good some bad, but that is not the topic.. So, maybe when.. If I care to "nuance" down the same paths as them that will give you the ability to ask me.. But lets not allow a small excerpt to get off track..
If you still feel I might be a little much and want to call me out... Give me a call.. anytime Mon-Fri... you can get my number if you call the Stirring Office.. I'm not gonna post it here..
Hey Juan,
I guess I wasn't as clear as I could be. I certainly don't think there is much wiggle room in how a Christian should approach the question of abortion in and of itself. It is evil.
However, (and this is what I meant by 'the art of the possible') if our choice was a pro-life Adolf Hitler, and a pro-choice... well, anyone other than Hitler. You see my point?
Rarely, if ever, in politics is the question, "Abortion, yes or no?" put on the table. Rather, the question is "will this pro-life candidate do other things that I like? Because, frankly, they will do little to nothing to erode the right to abort that women in our country currently have."
But this brings me to the deeper issue...
By making abortion the issue as Christians, we are failing to see that abortion is not the issue for Jesus!
The war is not against pro-choice individuals. The war is not against flesh and blood...
Do you know anyone who has ever had an abortion, or taken their girlfriend to have one? What is the Christian response to people who make lots and lots of money aborting babies?
We don't battle against them, but rather we battle on their behalf!!
I think this changes some of our rhetoric, don't you?
=============
And, yes, I come from the vineyard...
I remember you Juan...
I love Pastor Mike and Nancy dearly. They are my spiritual parents. Their commitment to follow Jesus instead of take the easy road has made such a tremendous difference in my life... I have watched them both choose to do things that caused so many people to walk away from their church... that is a tremendously difficult thing for most pastors to do. I am grateful to God for them both...
Steve,
I understood you loud and clear.. You believe there is not much "wiggle room" in the topic of abortion.. I don't believe any margin of justification or "wiggle room" as you put it exists.. Like I said, I believe in trusting God wholeheartedly.. and I think "most" (not all) Christians only trust God with what is comfortable, including casting a vote that puts them at ease rather than giving God the control.. in this case you claim abortion is inevitable, so we as Christians should focus on other matters..
With these things in mind I would assume it's clear as to where I stand versus youself... however, I'm asking fellow Christians to show me where we as believers can "wiggle" or rather step into a place that Jesus would stand confidently in support of in the realm that puts millions of babies to death..
If this is your opinion, It's your opinion.. but you are sadly mistaken..Everything Jesus did promoted life. And the change He called us to promoted discipline, coming against our flesh and taking up our cross daily...
Again, I want to make sure we stay on track here.. Nowhere in the context of my blog do I make a stand against anyone having an abortion.. In any particular situation I allow God to minister to me and drive how I would react..And again, I want to make myself clear... This question isn't directed towards abortion or anyone that has had one, but rather "Christians" that somehow believe they can find rhyme and reason to why it is inevitable and also justifiable...and even state that we should make it safe..
I'm not sure what you really mean by your "Pro-life Hitler". I would like to give you some validity there.. But I think you have made quite the overstatement and drawn up in your head that a "Pro-life Hitler" would make it this far in a political race.. Plus, you blatantly confirmed for me, that you weigh things differently than I and make your judgments in contrast with life and death issues.. Yeah, I get there are other things that matter... and I make myself clear in my blog as to how those "other" issues pale in comparison to the death of millions of babies..
Abortion is not the issue for God/Jesus? Very interesting.. Scripture clearly disagrees with you there... starting with Proverbs 24:11-12..
We can also see in Exodus 21 where God shows us a consequence for the death of an unborn child.. Which tells me, although we as believers live in a time further from what God chose to place on believers then.. I don't know of any scripture where He changes his mind on the topic of suffering children..
But then we see later in scripture.. God shows us again how he feels about the children in Mark 10:13
"The people brought children to Jesus, hoping he might touch them. The disciples shooed them off . But Jesus was IRATE and let them know it. "Don't push these children away. Don't ever get between them and me. these children are at the very center of life in the kingdom. Mark this. Unless you accept God's kingdom in the simplicity of a child, you'll never get it."
I think Jesus makes himself clear on the issue of children and what he expects of his disciples....
To answer you last question... Yes I know a few people that have had an abortion.. But like I said.. I'm not talking about them.. and I allow God to dictate my spirit, driving me with sensitivity and grace towards those that have traveled down that road.. If you pay attention to the context of my blog, you might discover what the issue is I'm addressing... I don't have a bomb with a clinics name on it.. so lets drop that.. I'm not a radical in any sense...
With my comment about the Vineyard.. I hope you didn't feel attacked in anyway.. Like I said you come from an amazing camp.. I gave you some insight to my experiences with both Pastor Mike and Nancy (does she put Pastor in front of her name now? she should.. haha) and with that I would hope to ease the tension that you might have with me...
and like I said, you can always track down my number and give me a jingle...
Somehow I missed using your quote to support how I'm different.. so I'll ad it here.. and I'm probably repeating my self.. but oh well.. (anything for the kiddies.)
You said:
"will this pro-life candidate do other things that I like? Because, frankly, they will do little to nothing to erode the right to abort that women in our country currently have."
Seems you have some of your own motives rather than what God calls us to... In which that's ok.. but you're clearly not Pro-life in this case..
Steve,
I remember who you are.. You were a incredibly massive dude and had a passion for wrestling... seems that has never left you, but looks like you have changed to different avenues.. I also see that you are a pastor.. That is a great accomplishment as I am not.. And given what I have seen on your behalf, I would humbly suggest that you revolt away from any continued contribution and tend to what God has tangibly placed in your life.. Topics like these do matter.. However, I am not one that is going to try and change your mind.. I also don't want to be responsible for causing you to stumble.. I want to make sure that none of this will turn and bite you in the future... Being a pastor is a very serious walk.. not at all perfect, and I'm not gonna hold that against you, but rather protect you from embarrassment.. I mean that with all sincerity and suggest that you retire..
with venues like this, it's hard to understand one's tone... Although I make myself clear and scrape the borders of what people might see as extreme I only use "generalizations" to make my point.. But I will never directly us hurtful words toward a single individual... But I will be honest.. and I will be direct.. and I will be biblical..
Hey Juan,
I must confess I am a little shocked at your comments...
I don't quite understand why you would tell me I need to retire?
I feel like perhaps you are angry at me???
Did I say something that came across as a personal attack??
If so, know that it was unintentional.
Steve,
I'm not offended what so ever... Not angry.. Not bitter (as you kindly categorized me)
I think the virtue "choose your words wisely" needs to be considered by both you and I... For myself and for the kiddies,I'm willing to take a few punches from my fellow brothers and sisters... But if the blows are uneducated, un-biblical and furthermore self-righteous, I have to throw up a few blocks here and there and recommend that the opposition retire.. In your case you have allowed yourself to fantasize on skewed probabilities that are far from taking place here in the U.S. (i.e. Pro-Life Adolf Hitler) .. I on the other hand speak from "reality"... and like I said... I do scrape the border of what some would find extreme but I remain in a realm that people will find evident in todays society..
I only recommend that you retire... because clearly it's a waste of your time to continue, because you have made your points, in which I understand....as I have made mine..
No biggie.. ultimately, we are on the same team... and we both still have lots to learn. (more so myself.) I believe as long as we are willing to remain focussed on the face of Christ we will know how to truly take part in hard issues of the world we live in..
To make myself clear... I'm talking about you retiring from this post... not as a pastor.. Didn't know if that's what you might of thought.. :)